Past, present, and questions

Here is a helpful external link for people interested in end time events and Christian 'historicist' teaching, to give people an outline of the three 'end time' views, 'preterist', 'historicist', and 'futurist'. from the historicist perspective.

I personally believe that the book of Revelation has been fulfilled throughout the history of Christianity and continues to be fulfilled, and will be further fulfilled in the future. :-) A number of bible prophecies in respect of the end times have several fulfillments.

It is thought that the Roman empire and its history is one of the four empires in the four empire prophecies of Daniel.

Two different main schools of thought are being identified by some in respect of the 'son of perdition' (often referred to as the 'Antichrist'). 'The historicist view', and 'The futurist view.' The definitions seem a little clumsy, but they're being used .

The historical view points specifically to Rome and the Papacy.

Numerous Popes of the past have been heavily corrupted.

An outline of the corrupted acitivites of past Popes here, and here ( an essay on estimates of the amount of Christians killed by the Papacy in the middle ages and later) .

The activities of Rome in the earlier years after the Lord Jesus Christ's time on earth and behaviours of corrupted early Popes, and those who followed their orders, gave rise to the most serious accusation there is about Papacy generally, which has been proposed by many scholars ever since. ( The accusation that the Popes, or at least certain Popes, are the powerful 'antichrist' whose activities are described in the bible book of Revelation.)

The Vatican has advocated unrighteous governance many times. I thas also engaged in politics encouraging a New World order/ One World Government many times.

The 20th century saw rising fascism in Rome as the politically motivated City of the era demonstrated enthusiasm for the World Order 'proposed' by Adolf Hitler. Much of the Vatican City area is heavily decorated with fascist associated signs and symbols , try checking it out next time you visit.

Opponents of the Papal order throughout the ages have not always been selfless in motive; far from it.

Here, an essay investigating the question 'What is the abomination of desolation?' These authors appear to advocate 'watching and praying' in the last days according to the instructions in scripture. They investigate the four empire prophecies of Daniel.

They remind us that a prophetic word from the Lord can speak about more than one situation. They suggest that we can infer that a relevant Daniel prophecy may refer to more than one desecration of the Jerusalem temple (and attacks on Jerusalem and Israel).

They suggest that certain 'end time prophecies' in the bible may have numerous fulfillments

"Many scholars recognize duality ('many layers' when in comes to prophecy and 'world prophecy' would be perhaps be a better way to put it) in Bible prophecy, meaning that many prophecies have an initial fulfillment as well as a later one. Jesus Himself alluded to this principle when He cited the prophecy of "the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15). The Jews of His day well understood that Antiochus Epiphanes had desecrated the temple, fulfilling this Daniel prophecy some 200 years earlier. Yet Jesus made it clear this prophecy would be fulfilled again....... "

The desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem that these authors mention came before Jesus' reference to the 'abomination of desolation' that Daniel had spoken of, so it can't be suggested that the Daniel prophecy was entirely fulfilled by the work of Epiphanes, obviously. It can be suggested that the 'abomination of desolation' that Jesus referred to infers the presence and work of more than one tyrannical demagogue figure.

The Lord Jesus' words suggest that the Daniel prophecies would be entirely fulfilled after the gospel had been preached to all the nations (which it now has been).

The reference to the 'son of perdition' in the Thessalonians scripture, the 'man of lawlessness' who is to emerge in that last days, appears to refer to one specific figure, though many of similar disposition apparently will precede him. It appears to refer to one penultimate ( world significant) demagogue figure, who will 'sit in the temple of God, proclaiming that he is God.'

According to regular interpretation of scripture, in the 'end times' the temple will be desecrated, and there will be terrible tribulation in Jerusalem and in the rest of the world and persecution of Israel and the Church. 'Let them that are in Judea flee to the mountains'....

Here, another essay by the authors cited above, 'when will these things happen?'






Both historicist and futurist 'views' state that there will be the second coming of Jesus as defined by scripture, the timing of which 'Only the father knows'.

First the Thessalonians scripture again.

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come except that there be a falling away first and a man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

Here is the Thessalonians scripture in all its English translations .Here, here and here.

Most translations of the scripture quoted above state 'son of perdition' rather than 'man of lawlessness.' (This same 'son of perdition' is identified as 'man of lawlessness' in other bible scriptures.)

The 'historicist view':

This 'view' suggests that the 'son of perdition' is defined by Papacy and has therefore come and gone, ( some advocates say he is still with us in the form of the Pope.). It makes reference to specific corrupt Popes, who, it is suggested, represent the 'the son of perdition' more than others. Some of its roots lie in Lutheran teaching.

Commentary from the Methodist Wesley is also referred to. He recognized that the 'son of perdition' had not appeared yet, in his day, though certain corrupted Popes had come to the fore:

2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first. This began even in the apostolic age. But the man of sin, the son of perdition - Eminently so called, is not come yet. However, in many respects, the Pope has an indisputable claim to those titles.

We can see that Wesley wanted the specific definition 'son of perdition' to apply to the Popes to the point that he was prepared to adapt scripture to fit his thesis. 'Eminently so called, is not come yet.' He effectively wrote: 'well it's true enough that the one penultimate false Messiah, the 'son of perdition' does not seem to be here yet, so let's treat the definition as a loose definition and treat Popes as the figure.'

Early proponents of the 'historic view' here. Various Popes are accused of having stated that they were supreme authority in place of Jesus Christ. A certain corrupted Pope is accused of having stated 'what am I, if I am not God?'

The 'futurist view':

There have been many antichrist figures in history. Many false Messiahs. ( People claiming to be Messiahs/Christs in place of Jesus are of course antichrist.) Many religious and political leaders, sinful men born of union between a man and a woman have claimed that they were Messiahs and the answer to the world's problems. Some have applied great brutality and stipulated that no one should trade without their approval.
Yet, at a time when other Revelation prophecies appear to be being fulfilled, there will be a penultimate false Messiah, the 'son of perdition', (often referred to as the 'Antichrist') who will force the status of a One World Government. A 'man of lawlessness' is to be revealed who 'opposes and exalts himself over everything that is called God or that is worshiped'..... ( see all the scriptures relating to this 'son of perdition'.) He will 'sit in the Temple of God, proclaiming that he is God.' There will have been a falling away in the Churches worldwide which will continue as people all over the world from all backgrounds ( all except those who remain faithful to Jesus) run out after the penultimate false Messiah, the 'son of perdition', (the 'Antichrist.')
The 'son of perdition' will deceive then turn on many.
'By peace he shall destroy many.'
There will be tribulation in the 'last days'.
At some point, the 'mark of the beast' or 'the number of his name' will be enforced.
( There is more to it all than this, see the bible and the discussions. This brief outline is just for the purposes of a comparison between two current 'views'.)

Many advocates of the 'historicist view' (the view as outlined above) appear to state that Popes are the 'man of lawlessness' / 'son of perdition' who 'set himself up in the Temple of God proclaiming that he was God'. If so, the Vatican Church of these Popes' era would need to be defined as the 'Temple of God.' (This would seem to be in conflict with the prophet Daniel's apparent reference to the Temple at Jerusalem).

They often suggest a certain Pope ( or the Papacy) might have fulfilled the one scripture:

'He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God'.

Many 'Historicist view' advocates suggest that the definition 'the son of perdition' applies to a collection of Popes, rather than just one man. 'The Papacy.' Some titles different Popes have used throughout the ages add up to six hundred threescore and six or thereabouts using types of deduction. Other historicists suggest it applies only to a few, the abusive Popes of history.

Earlier, we looked at how Emperor Neron Cesar's name adds up to six hundred three score and six (666) using certain types of deduction. We looked at the suggestion that the Roman Empire, those ancient persecutors of both Jews and Christians, somehow brought about the current world leadership state that is bringing in the New World Order. ( The global government).

The Thessalonians scripture defenition ( and other scripture defenitions related) does appear to apply to one man. Wesley admitted it. 'The son of perdition.' 'A man of lawlessness.' He will precede the second coming of Jesus and a rise at an apparently well defined time.
This 'one man' is referred to in several scriptures. The 'son of perdition.'

Throughout history there have been many antichrists. This is confirmed by the apostles who warn in the bible that ...

'1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour. Just as you heard that an antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.'

Over the past two thousand years there have been many figures who have falsely claimed that they were Christs ( Messiahs) and many have forced people to submit to their various orders. (Including corrupt Popes.)

Barack Obama is in the process of achieving world governance, it is thought.

The Revelation scriptures seem to suggest that a 'son of perdition' ( 'Antichrist') will achieve world governance and will apparently head up a One World Government.

The scriptures suggest he will 'set himself up in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.'

Then there is the scripture: 'And he forces all, small and great, bond and free, rich and poor, ...' See the full scripture here.

This scripture strongly implies that the forcing of the mark of the beast will happen through a One World Government with control over people from all types of situations.

Many people see the 'Temple of God' specified in the Thessalonians scripture to mean the Temple in Jerusalem.

Receiving the 'mark of the beast' or 'the number of his name' as defined by the book of Revelation is a sign of definitive devotion to satan that will ensure that a person is rejected by God. The bible Revelation scripture is very clear on this.

'Historicist view' advocates suggest that the 'mark of the beast' is the bible's way of branding someone who submits to a corrupt order governed by an antichrist figure ( they often cite corrupted Popes). According to the 'historical view' the 'mark of the beast' ( or the 'number of his name') is not a physical mark placed on a person's right hand or forehead. Their reasoning is: Christians are described in the bible as having the seal of God upon them. This is a spiritual, not a visible, seal; therefore, advocates of the 'historical view' suggest, the 'mark of the beast' must be a spiritual mark merely. Rather than a physical and spiritual one.

The 'futurist view' proposes that the 'mark' of the beast is indeed a spiritual mark and specifies that the 'mark of the beast' or 'the number of his name' is a specific, physical, visible mark that people will receive on their foreheads and their hands, enforced via a One World government. An unmistakeable mark. A physical mark and a spiritual mark. A mark that will be enforced and consequently received by many people in contempt of the Leviticus scripture:
'You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead or make any marks upon you: I am the LORD".

The bible appears to specify one specific, irrefutable 'mark of the beast' that will be enforced globally in the 'last days.' The 'last days' as defined by the bible cover a two thousand year period.

One branch of the 'historicist view', since it concludes that Rome ( incorporating Roman Catholicism) is the definitive 'beast', and Pope's are the 'son of perdition', apparently implies that anyone who ever worshiped an idol which had been worked into the Catholic Church or a corrupted Pope wouldn't have been forgiven had they sought God's forgiveness through Jesus , which is surely false. It seems to suggest that everyone who ever submitted to the authority of a corrupt Pope, including all Priests and Bishops, somehow received the irrevocable ' mark of the beast.'

That branch of 'historicist view' proponents do not distinguish between the corrupted Popes of the Vatican and the remainder of the Catholic Church and loosely suggest that every member of the Catholic Church, via the Papacy, is by definition antichrist. Given the amount of genuine Christians in the modern Catholic Church, all with their own opinions, including opinions on awful historical Popes and other problems there have been, ( e.g. the idol worship that has got into the Catholic church and associated suspect spiritual manifestations, coteries and worse etc. ) such a suggestion is clearly incorrect and inappropriate.

Many Catholic Christians have come out against Obama. Particularly in respect of the Infanticide issue. 'Mr. Obama's position is heartless.'


That branch of 'Historicist view' advocates either dismiss current events that seem to be happening in fulfillment of scripture prophecy such as the 'New World Order', ( Global governance) the coming 'cashless society' and the global warming crisis, or suggest that the biblical defined 'son of perdition' has nothing to do with end time events that apparently occur in fulfillment of Revelation prophecy, having already emerged a long time ago as the Papacy ( or, if pushed, one specific Pope.) They tend to ignore 'end time' events and current affairs.

Th 'historicist view' implies that one religious institution ( the Catholic Church) has had a monopoly on 'false Messiahs/false Christs'. That's surely false.

Corruption is not exclusive to the Catholic Church Institution. The Protestant Church Institution, (where as in the Catholic Church, there have been many sincere Christians who do not revere false leaders or idols ) has often practiced corruption.


It was founded not because Henry VIII was concerned about the 16th century malpractices and influences of Rome but because he wanted to commit adultery flagrantly and do away with everyone who stood in his way, beheading them all if necessary. Whatever Rome may have been rightfully accused of doing at the time, ( a great deal), the Church of England was founded in the spirit of adultery and rebellion by royal psychopath and politician Henry VIII.

Jesus said: 'whoever divorces his except for infidelity, and marries another, commits adultery.' How hard was that for leaders from either denomination to understand.

The true Church, born again believers in Christ Jesus, who obey his commandments, are made innocent by Jesus, being forgiven by God through Jesus.

Neither formal Protestant nor Catholic Church Institutions have an innocent history. Far from it. Nor do any other religious institutions. The Lord Jesus, in the parable about the 'wheat and the tares', explained that false Christians and groups of Christians would spring up among the true, and that they wouldn't be uprooted until the end, because God doesn't want the spread of the gospel and the true Chrsitians to be hindered or harmed in any way.

Cult leaders are well defined as false Christs ( false Messiahs).

Many political figures of world history are well defined as 'false Messiahs' . Their various eras of their rising and their rule, have been filled with 'wars and rumors of wars.' Wars and rumours of wars have not always depended on the emergence of such people.

The words of Jesus:

Take heed lest any man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying 'I am Christ', and deceive many. And when you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, do not be troubled, for such must needs be, but the end shall not be yet. For nations shall rise against nations, and there shall be earthquakes in diverse places, and famines and troubles; these are the beginnings of sorrows. But take heed to yourselves, for they shall deliver you up to councils, and in the synagogues you shall be beaten, and you shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, as a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published to all the nations. And when they lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what you shall speak, for whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, speak it, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Ghost. Now brother shall betray brother to death, and the father the son, and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And you shall be hated of all men for my names' sake, but he that endures to the end shall be saved. But when you shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing where it ought not, then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains.....'

Jesus is clear here. As are the rest of the bible scriptures that specifically refer to 'the son of perdition', the 'man of lawlessness'. There will be false Christs ( false Messiahs) ( Jesus does highlight those who state that they come in his name) and 'the abomination of desolation' which will occur after the gospel is preached to all the nations.

(Compare the words of Jesus with the Thessalonians scripture.)


One commenter there makes the following suggestion:

.....the Roman empire had two branches; Europe and the Middle East: only one of those performs beheading that the Book of Revelation speaks about being the punishment for not accepting the 'mark'.

Many people who're into the 'historical view' refuse to consider that the history of Rome and Jerusalem, corruption in the Papacy and other aspects of four empire history which appear to correspond with Old Testament scripture prophecy may be relevant to the current futurist 'end time' discussions- that there is a suggestion from the Lord that there would be many 'false Christs', and at the end of times, prior to the return of the Lord Jesus, a 'penultimate false Messiah'.

Barack Obama is an obvious potential political antichrist figure to be observed very carefully. It's not a research breakthrough. Anyone who's failed to notice this about Mr. Obama is either fast asleep, submersed in problems to the extent they don't have time to check him out, distracted otherwise, or categorically refusing to examine his case with an open mind for whatever reason. And a great many are following him with great enthusiasm. Often blind enthusiasm.

'Historicist view' researchers have turned up some interesting discoveries about historical events and false Messiahs . However one branch of 'the historicist view' ( as outlined in this post) with respect to the 'son of perdition' appears to try to adapt the scriptures to fit a thesis in order to specifcally focus on condemning the whole of the Roman Catholic Church past and present. It seems steeped in Protestant Institution history and fails to take an objective overview.

During the course of its history Rome and the Catholic Church has been unfiltered and riddled with with politics, corruption, brutality, false gods, freemasonry, signs and symbols, etc.
The list is long and discussions are extensive.

Rome and the Catholic Church is not alone in that.

The New World order is being brought in by Barack Obama whose campaign resulting in his status as President Elect involved a catalogue of blasphemy. He is an obvious cult leader, an obvious false Messiah. He has falsely stated that he comes in Jesus' name on a number of occasions and he seems to be 'opposing and exalting himself over everything that is called God or that is worshiped'. It has been happening worldwide. A great many people worldwide are focusing their worship on Barack Obama.
Here, an article on 'the world's reaction to his win'. One of many.

'For all the saints' is widely thought to be one of the best hymns to come out of the Anglican Church, written by a genuine believer in Jesus .
'All the Saints'.
All born again believers in Jesus who love him and keep his commandments who Jesus is sure to bring safely home. It is sung in churches everywhere.